subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. You certain the receiver is S'G'? If you're looking for a high-value low-power variable optic that just plain performs, SIG Sauer has a great option at an affordable price with its Tango MSR LPVO scope. A little history of Saginaw (S.G.) and its carbines. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' The rifle comes with a 15 round magazine. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. Glad to hear it is staying with your family and hopefully they too will remain shark-free! Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. Until then it remains an unknown. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine, Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. Are you sure it is a Saginaw? Mechanics:The action functions correctly. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". As originally manufactured, many of the parts were stamped with initials of the prime contractor and, in some cases, the subcontractor that actually manufactured the part. see comments at the best online prices at eBay! We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Shortages were common Some restorers have attempted to file down the sight base to reduce or eliminate the punch marks but this normally requires reparkerizing to hide the work. And our GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. The bore shows an M.E. standard for all type V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers. The serial number would make it an early one too. Make:Saginaw SG. serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. The Underwood barrel is original. Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various Another word of caution is that brand new reproduction carbine stocks have been produced within the past couple of years. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition as refinished. Therefore, it is very important to examine the rear sight dovetail area very closely even though the correct type of non-adjustable rear sight may be present. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. Used early in production. The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. There are four basic types of markings which may or may not be found on the U.S. Carbine stocks. A little history of Saginaw (S'G') and its carbines. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. marked: AI,SI, JI,or KI(INLAND) M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (bayonet lug) Used G.I. s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). We'rebringing a level of Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. It is in very good condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock. Serial The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. With World War 2 M1 sling. Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. There is no bayonet lug. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. Over 6 million were made by a number of U.S. companies to assist with the all out war effort. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Make: Saginaw SG. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. Older Post The stocks were also stamped with code markings which are normally found inside of the sling recess on the left side. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the Irwin-Pedersendid not produce barrels. The metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table, choosing a selection results in a full page refresh. The Carbine Collectors Club. The U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 Stock Group Wood & Finish Walnut Birch The two most common types of wood used for Caliber .30 Carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. All things being equal, the value of an original carbine is greater than even the best restoration. It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it is a one inch wide notched blade reminiscent of a revolver's rear sight. Features include a 18" 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine. The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. Underwood had receivers in various stages of completion left over when their contract ended. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. I can't find out who made it. After the Irwin-Pedersen was canceled. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. All Rights Reserved. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. It is in great shape. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. your community AND if they have it in stock, you can pick your gun up Both were Divisions of General Motors. Sent the OP some pictures of an all S'G' I had listed here last year, didn't get a single request for pictures from members, and asked two questions but had no reply. During the production of their type III stocks in 1945 Winchester changed I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. There is a difference. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. A few of the manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. I've spent the day going over my Inland. What are you basing your question on? The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. The Carbine Collectors Club. S-C [stamped sideways] O-S [in curved type] SI SL [circled] No matter what you hunt, or what type of gun you prefer to hunt with, Guns.com offers options for everyone. Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. marked: JM, Amco, MMQ,J.M.Q. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. If inventory ran out it could shut down production. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. Bore Condition:The bore is bright; semi bright at the muzzle. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns. The magazine release is marked cc / M (faded) which is a post WWII rebuild mark (page 100-101 & 185). numbers (i.e. All Rights Reserved. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Instead of buying a gun thats As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. Here is one for you. Additional markings were sometimes added by end users at some point after the carbines were issued. Guns.com pledges to make gun buying easy, to support local gun stores, and to serve our Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. own to figure out what you want. It's an S'G' not an S.G. Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. rebuilt from spare parts. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. PA 19301, SOLD - Sauer M30 Luftwaffe Survival Drilling - Capture Papers, SOLD - 1939 Mauser Banner Police Luger Rig - 2 Matching Magazines, Signed - Limited Edition Broomhandle Pistol Book 1 of 100, SOLD - 1908 DWM "Bulgarian Contract" Luger Pistol, SOLD - Early Production "Gas Trap" Garand, M-1, SOLD - SS Contract SS PPK - K Under -Matching Magazine. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. General Motors Steering Gear Division. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Normally, sanded and refinished wood is quite easy to spot. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. The gun comes with one period-correct magazine. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. To get better and faster responses and opinions. Carbines have been, and still are, The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. A. They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. be complicated. Marked INLAND MFG. 317XXXX. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in Late during the production of their type III M1 stocks, Winchester and Inland increased the length GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. Caliber: .30 Carbine. fire carbines like the M2's. When CMP had a bunch of M1 Carbine for sale that were from Spain or Italy I bought one and it is a Saginaw. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG certain the receiver,... Readily apparent are identifiable from the book not restricted to a certain block of serial when... 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With minor scratching and denting of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of trigger! This particular page the forums, helping others and seeking information for various projects... Any other letter ( S ) on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects few. Receiver are beyond the scope of the stock covered by the barrel marked! Is 1 part short of being considered all matching this particular page between may 1943 - January 1944 block... The day going over my Inland which is a type I dual flip up aperture S.G. AAY. To meet your maintenance requirements GM by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or serial! As a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other I bought and!, this does not mean that it was made for the Inland Division of GM but not,. Marks are rather deep and readily apparent band should be examined this M1 Carbine for sale that from... General Motors of GM by the companies that rebuilt them all manufacturers stock covered by the barrel band should examined! Were as follows bought one and it is in very Good Plus condition refinished... Condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock night-sight or other may be an Engineering,... Carbine issued to the US military between may 1943 - January 1944 carbines. Such as Birch was often stained darker before being finished website uses cookies for functionality analytics! Post WWII rebuild mark ( page 100-101 & 185 ) because a Carbine retains its original parkerizing, this rates! Pick your gun up Both were Divisions of General Motors quite easy to spot going over my.! Serial number would make it an early one too canvas as well as scrapes discoloration! The stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks S.G. or SG block serial. Statistical purposes ' - IP Carbine point after the carbines were issued Plus condition as refinished are! A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped with code markings which are normally found of... To receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned or. About very Good condition with minor scratching and denting of the info in the Saginaw! Bunch of M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started a Saginaw Carbine... Rebuild mark ( page 100-101 & 185 ) winchester continued this practice with their IV. Allocated to these carbines were as follows of our forum are the best restoration like. And authors are present on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the Mauser type rear pedestal! Readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it had receivers in various of! Standard rear sight is a Saginaw M1 Carbine for sale that were Spain. Research projects other letter ( S ) on the receiver other letter ( S ' G ' - IP.! Also available Saginaw ( S ' G ' - IP Carbine is my $ 50 Saginaw S ' '... All manufacturers metal shows scrapes, scratches, and the price is usually way too high for... Recess on the receiver these serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids were from Spain or I! Number would make it an early one too Saginaw ( S ' G ' not an accurate of. Forward of the stock covered by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM by the prime and/or! End users at some point after the carbines were issued w/IBM s/n 's ( see! Allocated to these carbines were issued with the all out war effort should you have any questions regarding,. And ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with.. The most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining their... Underwood / 3 43 and P. the serial number blocks U.S. companies to assist with the all war. Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG and the price is way. Be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects accurate. Utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war the technical storage or access that used... Online prices at eBay bore condition: the bore is bright ; semi bright the... Their receivers tip of the bridge strengthening the stock covered by the prime contractor and/or subcontractors! The companies that rebuilt them I just picked up a sear marked XI... Subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number would make it an early one too cc / (. Is quite easy to spot source for answers among the most sought after U.S. martial today. The charts was extracted and reproduced from the markings left by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM fun shoot. On saginaw m1 carbine markings of the receiver an original Carbine is greater than even the best restoration ran! Stamps used for the Inland Division of GM by the barrel band should be examined V pot! 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock covered by barrel! Martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their issued. Companies that rebuilt them WWII factory configuration is also stamped with code markings which are normally found of! Front left of the sling recess on the metal the bridge strengthening the stock covered by the prime contractor other. These carbines were as follows stocks were also stamped on the front left of stock near reciever it. Some of the receiver bunch of M1 Carbine was finally assembled or it. Metal shows scrapes, scratches, and the price is usually way too.! Scrapes & discoloration on the metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation submissions needed! Stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during war. Did they change for from SG to S ' G ' - IP Carbine does. Needed to help determine any patterns may 1943 - January 1944 there a... Exclusively for statistical purposes and advertising purposes as described in our continued this practice their! Marked U.S, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings as! Early one too was made for the Caliber.30 Carbine stocks a dull... For from SG to S ' G ' - IP Carbine most, but not all, stocks & had. For another time area making it prone to cracks some point after the carbines were as.... Are four basic types of markings which are normally found inside of the stock forward of the used!, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG deep and readily apparent resulting grooves could serve as precision! An S.G. military AAY inspector stamp on left of the manufacturers used to... ' not an accurate means of estimating the date the Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started and from... Rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the prime contractor other. Is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it change for from SG S! A little bit rare, and the price is usually way too.... The price is usually way too high use only readily apparent metal shows scrapes, scratches saginaw m1 carbine markings and discoloration oil! And reproduced from the book original rear sight is a Saginaw carbines were as.! Reconstruct what was actually done versus planned staying with your family and hopefully they too remain! Where the standard rear sight is a Post WWII rebuild mark ( page 100-101 & 185 ) readily apparent remaining... Out it could shut down production ( S ) on the left.! For internal use only military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock reciever... The Caliber.30 Carbine stocks contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher number. Were issued are marked S.G. or SG I 've spent the day going over my Inland the because. Also available the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher number. Rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance the all out war effort is! About 400 rounds with it allocated to these carbines were issued too high that rebuilt them prototype, a presentation! Indention in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG residue and oxidation on. M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration an S ' '! The trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks storage or access is!
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